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me_mantis

Joined: 26 September 2003
Posts: 1147
27 March 2010 19:33 (UK time)

I think it's having an objective.. a game plan

A big challenge that tries to stop you, or forces you to a different game plan.

Then, because you're clever, or just that good, you win anyways!



What do you think?


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
28 March 2010 00:27 (UK time)

It's in the human instinct to look for challenges and prove his strength and skill, from when we were apes.
If you win a game (or accomplished something) then our brain generates some sort of drug (similar to Morfine like in chocolate iirc), which makes us feel happy.
Similarly, we also get frustrated and angry when we lose a game, since that would mean we're not skillful enough.
That brain chemic effect also explains game addiction. It's a natural drug, so some people can get addicted to it, and feel bad without it. Then they look for more challenge to beat so they get more of the Morfine-like stuff. And that is also why addicted people get more angry when they lose a game, because then they don't get the drug they need so much.

The urge to look for challenge has originated from when the human started to eat meat. If you need meat, you gotta hunt. Therefore our brain drived us to do so (and give us happiness in exchange). So humans like to hunt.
The proof: Have you ever noticed how nearly all games (and sports!) are aimed at precision, speed and/or killing? That is because we needed those skills in the time we needed to hunt in order to survive. And that instinct still lives in our brain these days.

:choc(^^,)


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Hightree121

Joined: 22 March 2010
Posts: 65
28 March 2010 05:03 (UK time)

I say that it is finding new things. I love a challenge and after beating one, so much more is revealed. I guess that is why I find so little value in replaying some games. All the fun is in the discovery...

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Dthdealer

Joined: 10 March 2007
Posts: 476
28 March 2010 06:57 (UK time)

Hey guys.

A good game does not just present blind options where you don't know the outcome, but also options that you can learn from if they succeed or fail.

For example in a first-person shooter, I've just seen an enemy flee up some stairs. I have the two simple options of either fleeing or following, but also suboptions of both of those. These suboptions all have their own advantages and disadvantages.

If I choose to follow, I could for example
1. Run up the stairs behind him ( makes me an easy target if he saw me )
2. Lob a grenade up the platform to where he is ( easy kill, but I might hurt other people/teammates up there)
3. Rocketjump up an unexpected direction to the platform ( obvious and I lose HP, but guaranteed to take him by surprise)
4. Mine the only way out of his position and lure him out ( slow and risky, but if successful a tribute to how much smarter I am than my enemy)
5. Run around the other side of where he is and cut him off ( he may however come back the same way he came or be to fast to for me to get there first )

These microchoices affect not only the outcome of our actions, but also
1. Makes us learn new tactics/learn more action=effect ( developing some sections of the brain )
2. Give us a personality in-game ( we feel violent if we just lob a grenade up, trigger happy if we rocket-jump and clever if we trap ). This is similar to the choice between incapacitation and killing of enemies in stealth games.
3. Give depth to the game and help lesson the feeling of linearity.

The worst thing you can do when designing the game however is make all circumstances solvable by only one or two tactics, even though others are available. Then the game becomes a grind of repetition. If only following him up the stairs works, then why have these trip-mines and grenades everywhere?

Also known as Veyrdite
My website: http://halestrom.net/darksleep@Occasionally you may meet me when you sleep. In the darkest corners of your dreams, where your phone stops working and you don't know what to do. I'll be there; telling you that I don't support your device.

"Can't you just fix-"
NO! I told you when you bought this, when it goes wrong I can't fix it. It's filled with glue. The Greek goddess of glue Araldities herself would be impressed with this.

Please stop asking me for technical support during your dreams. Can't we just tour some surreal landscapes instead?

"How do I do that?"

Count your fingers. Keep trying. Make sure there's ten.

Then summon me. I am large and covered in wires. Clouds of baking soda pour into your world and a slightly weak yellowy glow appears from the LED strips behind me.

If you can see this message then you're already part of the way there. Keep all your styles disabled and you might see the dream within.

"But there's so much javascript everywhere! I can't see you. Help! I've forgotten to count my fingers! Where do I find them?"

The LED strip behind me pops and goes out. Dark spots appear in the centre of each light. I lift my finger to my lips. The smell of tantalum capacitors fills the air.

Ssh. Don't worry about that. Behind those frameworks there's another person sleeping.

Some day the javascript will sleep too.


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
28 March 2010 13:41 (UK time)

Dthdealer wrote:
The worst thing you can do when designing the game however is make all circumstances solvable by only one or two tactics, even though others are available. Then the game becomes a grind of repetition.
Why does that sentence make me think of Runescape and WoW? Lol :p


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Spy

Joined: 05 October 2007
Posts: 1031
28 March 2010 17:36 (UK time)

Personally, I love a challenge, and I like when new material is unlocked if you play on the hardest difficulty, instead of enemies just getting tougher and more powerful. I hate complete endings, they make me bored, so I prefer a cliffhanger- ending style, where it's obvious that there will be a sequel, and the problem isn't solved yet. Those games include Half Life, NOLF, and some others, those are just my personal favourites.
I was known as Naval War before.
I love and mod Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
Also an active osu! player: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3971179


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DarkRain

Joined: 01 March 2007
Posts: 1193
28 March 2010 18:34 (UK time)

I like very hard games too. They give us the ability to think carefully and fast. For example 3D actions develop our skill to get our bearings in a 3-dimensional world, to be faster. First person sneaker games like the Thief series make us think thoroughly how to avoid enemies, how to knock them out without being detected, which makes us more clever. Strategies teach us how to organise the resources available and gain more resources in order to defeat the enemies. This develops our organisational skills.
The Dark Age is upon us! Quake 2 mapmaker.


Edited: 28 March 2010 18:36


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
29 March 2010 01:26 (UK time)

My explaination is the only scientifically proven one. I win. :p


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arezey

Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 1599
29 March 2010 15:40 (UK time)

ParaSait wrote:
My explaination is the only scientifically proven one. I win. :p

/ignore ParaSait

I'm opposite of Spy and DarkRain.. I get frustrated if faced with a challenge too hard. I personally intensely dislike failing. Failing makes me think I'm a n00b. I do not like being a n00b. So I only play games that I manage to win, and not with the 100,000th try or so.

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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
29 March 2010 16:19 (UK time)

arezey wrote:
/ignore ParaSait
I still win. (^^,)
:p
arezey wrote:
I'm opposite of Spy and DarkRain.. I get frustrated if faced with a challenge too hard.
In two weeks or so you won't like AlphaBounce anymore, sugarpops :choc(^^,)
EDIT: Tell me when you got on Spignysos. I don't wanna miss your reaction :D


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Edited: 29 March 2010 16:28


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me_mantis

Joined: 26 September 2003
Posts: 1147
29 March 2010 18:16 (UK time)

Dthdealer wrote:

The worst thing you can do when designing the game however is make all circumstances solvable by only one or two tactics, even though others are available. Then the game becomes a grind of repetition. If only following him up the stairs works, then why have these trip-mines and grenades everywhere?


I like this. I think once you get the "ultimate strategy" the game is boring.. it becomes "who can click fastest" I prefer brainpower over fingerspeed.

@parasaitA game isn't fun by a chemical reaction in your brain, this is why you play games, not necessarily why games are good. What do you think makes a game fun?

I think like games where you are rewarded for finding out the best way to do something, and having the ability to do it.

I also like really really hard games. Games so hard not everybody can beat. It's way cooler to beat a level nobody else can beat in >10 tries than beating a lever a bit faster than your friends.

If games are too hard, because you can't play them play fluidly, it's not fun.



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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
30 March 2010 00:37 (UK time)

Hmm... so you mean a subjective answer?

Well, the main thing that makes me like games is the fact that I crafted em myself. :D In fact it's mainly the satisfaction of having accomplished something after all the crampy fingers, weird runtime errors and headaches. :)

Now. If it is on the part of games that I did not make myself (which is of course still the major part), it has to be the satisfaction of thinking out strategies, be wise in every action, and learn from my mistakes. Welcome to the world of roguelikes baby B-)

There's also the 3rd part, and that is the relief I get after a "oh shit I have to go to the other side of the building to use this item", only to result in more doorways, locks and keys. And that while you can get killed any time (literally that is, heart-attack style) by either monsters that can randomly jump through windows etc, and the psychological threatening the game does to you. I'm a Silent Hill & Resident Evil guy :)

Last but surely not least is also the aspect of story. If there is something that makes me fully enjoy games, is a deep storyline that completely surrounds you as if you were the protagonist yourself. You get to know someone in the game, completely trust him/her, then he/she gets killed by the big bastard, and then the juicy revenge at the end.
What I wanna say is... of course that juicy fight at the end can only be fully enjoyed if you have a reason to fight.

So you see I am mostly a patient, slow-paced gamer, but there is one exception...

1 game, where the only objective is kill kill kill, totally no story, and kick some big baddy's butt at the end with no appearant reason other than pure bloodlust.
Doom! B-)


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masuda
 Official Sponsor

Joined: 06 February 2005
Posts: 824
30 March 2010 09:51 (UK time)

as for me, hard games just make me frustrated and even if i manage to finish it, it just gives me a satisfaction not really happyness (whew i made it, k wuts next) and i wish that the creators of that level should burn in hell :D

and games like meteor1 or prototype where im surely overpowered is fun, that actually i can win by using things that the enemy cant.
penumbra is fun too due to the great physics in it, i usually spent some time just by stacking things, throwing a dynamite on it and watch as the whole thing falls apart. :D
and portal is fun too due to its unusual gameplay (^^,) not to mention when i created "infinite portals" :D

so i consider such little things fun, also i kinda agree with arezeys opinion d(^^,)

gfx and sfx doesnt count at all as simple games can be fun too, tho they can add to atmosphere of the game if they used well as well as the story
kawaii-chan益田清次 / Masuda Seiji / PetiX

Meteor FE+ This version has 'Close FE after starting a mod' option.


Edited: 30 March 2010 09:56


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
30 March 2010 16:01 (UK time)

PetiX wrote:
gfx and sfx doesnt count at all as simple games can be fun too, tho they can add to atmosphere of the game if they used well as well as the story
Modern graphics burn my eyes >.< I find that old graphics (not crappy, just old) add to the atmosphere of playing good oldies... and most good oldies had much, much better gameplay than your average modern game.
I was a Playstation gamer for quite a long time, then the PS2 came out, my dad bought that for my good report card, only to conclude that PS2 is the end line for me. Yep, it's than that I stopped gaming and starting looking back at PS1/Dos/Nes/Retro style games.
And these days the "mass" only like really beautiful gfx and totally don't care bout gameplay anymore... it's sad.

Another thing that annoys me... why does every new game need a "twist" these days? Can't they just make normal games without any annoying special traits? >.< I'd have enjoyed Wolf 2009 a lot more if it wouldn't have had that Veil medallion... can't they just keep it at shooting, like in the good ol' days in Wolf3D?


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Edited: 30 March 2010 16:09


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DarkRain

Joined: 01 March 2007
Posts: 1193
30 March 2010 18:01 (UK time)

The gameplay is the most important thing in a game for me too.
The Dark Age is upon us! Quake 2 mapmaker.


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
30 March 2010 18:27 (UK time)

DarkRain wrote:
The gameplay is the most important thing in a game for me too.
Well I think about all of us has that opinion here. Sadly enough, I don't think our super large community can really be called "the mass" :p


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Edited: 30 March 2010 18:27


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Spy

Joined: 05 October 2007
Posts: 1031
30 March 2010 18:36 (UK time)

I like Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2.
I was known as Naval War before.
I love and mod Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
Also an active osu! player: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3971179


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
30 March 2010 19:06 (UK time)

@Spy

On topic please. What makes you like it? :p


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me_mantis

Joined: 26 September 2003
Posts: 1147
30 March 2010 19:18 (UK time)

People I know who used to be die hard new game fanatics played games from 1996, and liked them better than newer games - instant gameplay converts.

I'd have to say that the majority of gamers do like better gameplay, they just haven't experienced it.

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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
30 March 2010 19:58 (UK time)

me_mantis[keens wrote:
]People I know who used to be die hard new game fanatics played games from 1996, and liked them better than newer games - instant gameplay converts.

I'd have to say that the majority of gamers do like better gameplay, they just haven't experienced it.
Yea and they don't wanna try either, cause the old-fashioned graphics \(*_*)/ scare em away. Impulsive fools. :p


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mike323
Joined: 23 January 2005
Posts: 745
30 March 2010 20:42 (UK time)

Unexpectedness. Random everything - AI, sound effects, events. It seems like such a simple concept yet almost every game I play is repetitious. (M2 is improving...especially with the random-looking AI)

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arezey

Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 1599
31 March 2010 11:55 (UK time)

Oh yes, and the ability to play multiplayer! :D

It's fun when you can kick some ass with your friends as well. Or kick your friends ass if you want to. I wonder how mantis left this aspect out. o_o

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DarkRain

Joined: 01 March 2007
Posts: 1193
31 March 2010 17:09 (UK time)

@arezey

Well, I missed that too. ;)
The Dark Age is upon us! Quake 2 mapmaker.


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masuda
 Official Sponsor

Joined: 06 February 2005
Posts: 824
31 March 2010 19:29 (UK time)

yea multiplayer always adds to the fun
kawaii-chan益田清次 / Masuda Seiji / PetiX

Meteor FE+ This version has 'Close FE after starting a mod' option.


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me_mantis

Joined: 26 September 2003
Posts: 1147
31 March 2010 23:58 (UK time)

Mike is right. If a game plays the same way twice, you'll be bored. I think random = way more fun because you have to adapt, or have a way better strategy.

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Spy

Joined: 05 October 2007
Posts: 1031
01 April 2010 22:58 (UK time)

And gangsters, how could you forget that? Gangsters make the game fun!
I was known as Naval War before.
I love and mod Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
Also an active osu! player: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3971179


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me_mantis

Joined: 26 September 2003
Posts: 1147
04 April 2010 05:34 (UK time)

gangsters do make games fun.

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Hightree121

Joined: 22 March 2010
Posts: 65
05 April 2010 01:01 (UK time)

Don't forget, non linear campaigns help. It is always fun to try something completely different. Once the outcome is predictable, the game is pointless. That is probably why newer games aren't that fun. For example, all of the Call of Duty series progress as follows: run around getting shot at, getting blown up, somehow surviving, more running around, and finally A: killing someone, or B: taking some random objective (I should know since my Dad has four of them). Most people don't see this and just look at the "amazing" graphics. Older games are defiantly better.

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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
05 April 2010 15:17 (UK time)

Hightree121 wrote:
Don't forget, non linear campaigns help. It is always fun to try something completely different. Once the outcome is predictable, the game is pointless. That is probably why newer games aren't that fun. For example, all of the Call of Duty series progress as follows: run around getting shot at, getting blown up, somehow surviving, more running around, and finally A: killing someone, or B: taking some random objective (I should know since my Dad has four of them). Most people don't see this and just look at the "amazing" graphics. Older games are defiantly better.
Welcome to the club man. Welcome to the club.


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Spy

Joined: 05 October 2007
Posts: 1031
05 April 2010 19:47 (UK time)

I like Crysis, not because all those super graphics, because gameplay, and the gangster feeling it has! Like: Jou matafaka *pulls out shotgun* I'm gonna kick yar ass hahaha! *BOOM!*
I was known as Naval War before.
I love and mod Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
Also an active osu! player: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3971179


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ParaSait

Joined: 26 June 2007
Posts: 1477
05 April 2010 20:46 (UK time)

Spy wrote:
I like Crysis, not because all those super graphics, because gameplay, and the gangster feeling it has! Like: Jou matafaka *pulls out shotgun* I'm gonna kick yar ass hahaha! *BOOM!*
(Crysis? Gangsta style? Wtf o.O)


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Hightree121

Joined: 22 March 2010
Posts: 65
06 April 2010 02:03 (UK time)

Actually, Crysis is pretty fun. I also have this and it is quite possibly the best first person shooter that I have seen. It is awesome being able to knock down buildings with your hands or throwing an explosive barrel at someone only to detonate it in mid air, or picking the enemies up and throwing them at each other. Of course the plasma cannon in the end is an EPIC bonus. The only thing that bothers me is the seemingly unfinished storyline. First person shooter wise, it is only second to Outcast (if it is even classifiable as a FPS). (Maybe I should start a game review thread...)

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